Last week, new Michigan head coach Dusty May spent a day with the Miami Heat staff before flying to Pittsburgh to brainstorm with Utah Jazz head coach Will Hardy and Charlotte Hornets assistant coach Josh Longstaff. May will read any book and study film of any basketball team if it helps him with an idea, play or leadership tactic.
And part of his continuing education is a podcast with two coaches most basketball fans have never heard of.
On his way to lunch last February, May heard Olimpia Milano coach Ettore Messina explain the concept of space in attack. The week before, the voice of Tokyo Hachioji B-Trains head coach Tyler Gatlin rang through May's speakers. The next week, May would hear former NBA head coach Stan Van Gundy.
The global lessons come from the Slapin' Glass podcast, which has grown to 201 episodes in four years and become a word-of-mouth favorite among coaches at all levels of sports.
“I listen to every episode,” May said, “my staff listens to just about every episode, and I'd say the majority of college coaches probably listen on a regular basis.”
Jeff Van Gundy stumbled across one of the hosts' video analyses (they also have a weekly newsletter and YouTube channel) and was so impressed that he called them up to tell them how great it was. Since then, he's encouraged some of his closest friends in the industry to appear on their show, which led to the two little-known basketball coaches, who played together at Division III Chapman University, getting on the phone with Hall of Fame football coach Bill Parcells.
“Everyone's wary of going on a podcast and going off on a tangent about something they can't talk about,” Van Gundy said. “They know they're going to be serious about talking about basketball. There are no 'staged' questions. It's not overly dramatic clickbait like, 'Who's the best player?' They're really trying to help coaches coach better.”
Guests on the show have included some of the most respected basketball coaches in the country, including Brad Stevens, Geno Auriemma, Rick Pitino, Tom Thibodeau, Mike D'Antoni, the Van Gundy brothers, John Beilein, and many other big names from the international game as well. What began as a self-development project for the host has become a haven for professional talk for coaches and basketball aficionados at all levels.
“When you do something like that in an hour, you're usually a better coach when you're done,” St. Louis coach Josh Schertz said.
Carney and Krikorian in Berlin the night the idea for the podcast was born. (Courtesy of Dan Krikorian)
Dan Krikorian planned to be a musician when he graduated from Chapman University in 2007. In between tours, he made extra money by giving shooting lessons and coaching youth teams, eventually becoming a junior varsity coach at his high school. “The minute I stepped in the gym as a coach, I was like, 'OK, this is what I want to do,'” he says. In 2013, Krikorian returned to Chapman as an assistant coach. This summer, he was promoted to head coach.
Pat Carney played professionally for 12 seasons in Germany's top basketball league. He retired in 2018 and stayed in Germany to pursue a coaching career. The two young coaches and their former teammates kept in touch by phone, studying other teams around the world and talking basketball. One night, over beers after Krikorian's band played in Berlin, Krikorian suggested he turn the jam sessions into a podcast and interview the coaches about the systems that intrigued them.
The idea was largely forgotten until a year later, when Krikorian and Carney were discussing the motion offense of Division III Yeshiva University, which had just compiled a 29-1 record in a modern-day version of Indiana University's Bob Knight system. Wanting to get coach Elliot Steinmetz's opinion, Krikorian and Carney set up a Zoom call. Just before the meeting, Krikorian suggested they record it; he already had all the sound and editing equipment, so hopefully they could make the interview their first episode.
The pandemic has made it more common for coaches around the world to connect over video calls. The first episode of the podcast, released on August 17, 2020, wasn't as polished as what the Slapin' Glass staff produces now, but they enjoyed it so much that they decided to make it a weekly routine.
At first, viewership was small — “Our moms,” Krikorian jokes — but viewership grew whenever a high-profile guest joined the show, like Jeff Van Gundy in February 2021. The hosts compiled a list of coaches they wanted to interview, took suggestions from fellow coaches, and started trying. To their surprise, they rarely got turned down.
“They ask really good questions,” said University of Alabama assistant Ryan Pannone, who is the coach of the G League's Erie Bayhawks and the show's third guest, “and it ends up with more coaches wanting to be on because they have a good product and a good coach talking about it and they're listening.”
Their curiosity and research seems to have led to tongues wagging. Beilein, who has always been cautious about speaking publicly about the two-guard offense, didn't hesitate to explain his coaching tips to his Slappin' Grass players and praise the questions they asked him.
“I haven't talked about basketball like this with anyone in a while,” Berrien said near the end of the interview.
Whereas most coaches approach a podcast interview expecting to be drawn into a storytime, Slappin' Glass guests soon find themselves delving into the intricacies of the coach's method.
“That's the ideal for us,” Carney said. “This isn't an interview. Let's talk basketball.”
Ethos of the show: Everything Coach does is interesting.
“The best thing about basketball, and the reason it keeps the conversation fresh and new every week, is there are so many ways to win,” Carney said. “There are so many ways to teach, so we don't assume there's one right way to do it. Otherwise, we probably would have had that conversation and gotten the job done.”
Krikorian and Carney arrive at their interviews with a few story ideas gleaned from their background knowledge and film studies, but their ability to listen and ask insightful follow-up questions drives the conversation and sometimes leads them astray.
“What I love most about podcasts is when they go in directions you never expected,” Krikorian said.
They often lead coaches into uncharted territory with a regular segment called “Start, Sub, Sit,” a basketball-centric variation of the common forced-choice game. When Stevens appeared on the show, they asked him which of three quotes from Ted Lasso he would start, sub or sit. (Stevens begins: “You know what the happiest animal on Earth is? It's a goldfish. You know why? Goldfish have a 10-second memory. Be a goldfish.” Because they don't have to worry about what anyone will say about them or about missing a shot. “I love that,” Stevens said. “Don't worry about it. I have shooting amnesia.”)
It all always comes back to the game and never goes into talk that doesn’t apply to coaching.
“We know that our coaches spend 45 minutes on the treadmill or 40 minutes commuting to work,” Krikorian said. “We don't want to waste a second of their time on something that's not worthwhile.”
Kerkorian (left) was named head coach at his alma mater in August. (Alex Vazquez, Chapman University)
While relationships with coaches like Van Gundy have helped Krikorian and Carney bring on some of the most high-profile guests, what they're most proud of is that the show's downloads and view numbers are no longer driven so much by name recognition, and they've been able to give talented but lesser-known coaches a platform to share their knowledge and ideas.
“When you really think about it, just like the best players, coaches grow and find their level. That's not always the case with coaches,” Van Gundy said. “Some do. And some don't, either by choice or because they just haven't had the opportunity. But I think too many fans think that the best coaches develop in the same way that their players do. That's just not true.”
Krikorian and Carney have launched an amazing side business. Their podcast has multiple sponsors and averages 30,000-40,000 downloads per month. Their newsletter has over 7,000 subscribers, with nearly 1,000 of them paying for premium content.
Their content is enjoyed by anyone who loves the game, not just coaches, but a niche audience. But their goal wasn't to become famous, it was to become better coaches.
“Coaching takes skill,” Carney says. “You have to know yourself. You have to work hard. But a lot of it is also relationships. This program has allowed us to build real relationships and continue those conversations beyond the podcast, which has had a direct impact on our careers.”
During the interview for this article, Carney was in Poland with the German under-20 national team, whose head coach, Martin Schiller, was a guest in 2022 and stayed in contact with Carney, eventually asking him to join his staff this summer.
Krikorian would be lying if he said he didn't consider one day coaching at a level higher than D-III, but now he's living a pretty fulfilling life as the head coach of his alma mater in the backyard of where he grew up, building a sustainable business that was born out of an idea during the pandemic.
“These are people we can now call for advice,” Krikorian said. “Honestly, that's our dream.”
ESPN analyst Fran Fraschilla, a fan and two-time guest on the show, said the success of the Slapin' Grass players reminds him of the old days when coaches like Hubie Brown and Dean Smith traveled overseas to teach baseball.
“What's happened over the course of two or three generations is the world has started teaching us the game of basketball,” Fraschilla says. “Slappin' Grass has given us a great menu of international basketball ideas. They're a conduit for great basketball coaching information.”
(Above illustration photo courtesy of Alex Vasquez and @ralf.zimmermann.fotografie)
